The REAL Secrets of Sex and Marriage! – Sexual Confidence on Tap #58

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SPEAKERS

Michael Sytsma, Shannon Ethridge

Shannon Ethridge  00:21

Hello and welcome to another episode of sexual competence on tap with Shannon Etheridge and friends. And today, I get to have one of my old friends back for another conversation, because he has a brand new book, Dr Michael Sytsma. I’m going to let him unpack his credentials with you momentarily, but I have to say that I just learned something about him that I had no idea about. I just assumed that Michael had tons of books to his credit, because he is literally a cream of the crop expert, like when I run up against problems that I am not sure that, like the male, the husband will respond well to a female, and I want to refer them. Dr Sytsma is the one that I refer them to, so I just assumed he had all these books, but the book that we’re going to be talking about today is actually his first book. But let me tell you why that’s so monumental. He says the reason that he’s never done it is because it is so much work, and I completely agree. So he obviously is so passionate about this topic that we’re going to be talking about today, that he crossed that threshold and bit that bullet and did the work. And I’m so so glad, Michael, because the world needs to hear what you have to say on this topic, because you have so much experience, so unpack some of those credentials, tell us about your experience well

Michael Sytsma  01:47

first, and how I think of myself as I am a pastor. I’m ordained in the Wesleyan Church, pastored in church on staff, passed for or pastored in churches on staff for a number of years, and people kept coming to me asking Pastor Mike how to work with the pain in their lives, and I just didn’t know, and that was unacceptable to me. So I kept going back and getting additional training. I had come home and tell my wife, I know the answers are in there someplace. Nobody’s taught me how to get them out. So I got my master’s in community counseling. I was trained as an addictions therapist, and I worked with alcoholics and drug addicts inpatient for quite a while, then started private practice alongside of my pastoral work, and fell in love with marriage work, just seeing marriage as the kind of ultimate discipleship tool, the way for us, you know, nothing challenges us to grow up quite like that. So I had started working with sex addicts in 1990 and when I started working with couples in the mid 90s, I was fairly comfortable with them bringing sexual issues to me and again, kept going back and getting additional training. So in the early 2000s graduated with a PhD from the University of Georgia, where I specialized in marital sex therapy, and I now have high countered up for somebody the other day. Have over 2400 hours of sex therapy training. Have over 30,000 hours of sitting with individuals and couples listening to their stories. And the PhD of course has seven. I had seven doctoral level courses in research and methodology and how to do some of that, so that that drew me into falling in love with the research side of it as well. So today I’ve been, I’ve been doing building it at marriages since 98 Wow,

Shannon Ethridge  03:42

and the research component of it is one of the things that excited me most when you told me about this project, because you are partnered with someone else whom I greatly respect and have spoken alongside many times way back in the day, Shaunti feldhan is a researcher, journalist, so I can imagine that the two of you put your heads together, and it was like total sparks and synergy. How did that partnership come about? I’m just curious. I have to hear the back story. Yeah,

Michael Sytsma  04:13

it’s probably been a good 20 years. Shaunti and her team are here in the Atlanta area, and when she was writing some of her early books, she or her team would reach out to me and say, hey, help us to make sure we get this correct. Help us to make sure we get this accurate. From a clinical side, how would you say this? And for some of the books, we actually spent hours hammering out some some points in the book, right? So, well, you can’t really say that, or that’s not how a lot of people are. Here’s what may reflect more accurately. And I I really deeply appreciate her desire to make sure what she’s saying is as accurate as possible, to make sure it holds a high level of. Of Research Integrity. And so she reached out to me about three years ago and said, You know, I’ve just finished this book on money in marriage, which is an amazing book. And she said, I think the next thing we need to do is talk about sex, but we’re really uncomfortable doing that, would you join with us? And I was like, yeah, probably not, because, like you said, I’ve really avoided doing doing books, but the opportunity to work with somebody that I respect, who is a good writer, who helped keep me on task and and took it down, as you saw in the preface, from a 3000 page book to something that’s doable. Was it’s been a really good opportunity and a good project, a ton of work, but working with her and her team has made it definitely very doable.

Shannon Ethridge  05:55

Yeah, I can only imagine I was actually thinking last night, who am I more jealous of Michael because he got to work with Shaunti, or Shaunti because she got to work with Michael. So I have never been so passionate about promoting someone else’s book, and the main reason is because of what you just said. I know that your years of clinical experience, your doctoral degree, your pastor’s heart, the just the experience that you bring to the table, coupled with Shaunti research and journalism skills and just her understanding and insights for men and women in marriage as well. I knew that it would be a dynamic book, so without further ado, let’s tell them the name of the book, and then here’s what I want you to answer for me. There are literally probably millions of books out there on sex and marriage, and no one reads books anymore anyway. So why would I beg my listeners to read your book? What sets it? What sets it apart from all the other books out there.

Michael Sytsma  07:04

Good question. I think two things really stand out that you’ve already mentioned. One is the integrity that we’re bringing into it with the research background and the experience from both of us bringing different types of experience into it gives for data that we believe is truly trustworthy. There’s so much information out there, especially in the church world, but even in the non church world, that is that is more myth based than it is actual fact based. And that really complicates the marital relationship, because we tend to believe a lot of myths about each other too.

Shannon Ethridge  07:41

Myth stereotypes are very problematic.

Michael Sytsma  07:45

Yep, and we talk about it as in our field, as attribution theory, talks about misattributions that I attribute something to that’s not actually accurate. It fits the facts, but it’s it’s not truthful. And when you add a cultural message, whether it be church culture or non church culture, or any other culture that’s not accurate, we we have quite a mess. So trying to drill down to what is true, what is accurate, always knowing that as research changes, some some data will shift, and as culture shifts, some information will shift. But we’ve worked on making something that is truly trustworthy and accurate and cuts through some of the myths. And second is Shaunti writes very concise, well worded. It’s her stuff is easy to read. Many times she’d hand something back and I’d go, That’s brilliant, and she’d say, but that’s your material, yeah, but I could never write it as concise and as well as that, and we wrote a book that’s designed to have couples sit down and read it out loud to each other. Now we know that a lot of couples that’s never going to happen for a variety of reasons, but that’s the target. Is a book that is short has gets right to the point and engages couples in talking about what we believe or is valuable for them to talk about in their marriage around this subject. So if they can, if they want to just pick one book to sort through, this really would be the one that I’d encourage,

Shannon Ethridge  09:19

and me too, I really believe that, with all my heart, that this is a book that every couple should consider reading. So we haven’t even told them the name of the book. They’re probably like, Come on already. What’s the name of the book? So I can Google it. So the book title is secrets of sex and marriage, and the subtitle is eight surprises that make all the difference. So I understand that this was not a tiny research sample.

Michael Sytsma  09:46

This was sick, no, and I’m really proud of the research that we did. It was four different surveys, one of them went out to professionals. To people helpers to get a good feel for them. One of them went to what we would call a convenient sample, 250 couples that were coming to a church event. So these were couples that were reaching out for some kind of help or guidance with it. But the two larger ones were 1097 individuals who are married, and 501 couples. Now both of those are what we call nationally representative samples, in that they’re designed to reflect the statistics of the 2018 US census. So they cross faith boundaries, they cross ethnic boundaries. They cross, education boundaries, age boundaries, the samples, ideally are what the average American is like. Those are expensive to get. We spent over $120,000 in just getting the research done, and takes quite a bit of time to do. But the one I’m most proud of is the 501 couples. That’s called, again, it’s a nationally representative. So it’s 501 couples from across the United States, reflecting 2018 census data. But it’s couples. So while the husband and wife both anonymously, took the survey independently. They didn’t know, you know what each other were saying. The technology is there for us to tie those two together to know which survey is married, which survey is married to which and so we can actually ask the husband what he thinks about his wife would answer, and then we can ask the wife what she would really answer. And we can look very directly at those attributions. We can say, you know, who do you think is the highest desire spouse in the marriage? And then we can ask the partner, who is the highest desire spouse in

Shannon Ethridge  11:56

the marriage visions and Bob Eubanks on the newlywed game, like you asked one.

Michael Sytsma  12:04

Well, to our knowledge, no nationally representative sample of couples asking about marital sex has ever been done to this size. They’ve all been way smaller than this. So it’s truly a monumental research study that has just been so much fun, and

Shannon Ethridge  12:22

I understand that the total number is about 5300, individuals collectively, that that is my absolutely mind blowing, absolutely mind blowing, that you could gather that much data. So this was not just conjecture. This was not just based on the experience that you have with cisgendered, Caucasian evangelical couples like this is, like you said, it’s a cross section of our society as a whole.

Michael Sytsma  12:52

Now, my experience goes beyond that particular type of a person, but you’re right, most samples that are done are going to fit a very specific type of a couple or individual, and this we intentionally targeted.

Shannon Ethridge  13:07

The researcher reaches out to their tribe. Well, their tribe usually looks and sounds and thinks like them, so good for you guys for reaching far outside your own circles and getting some accurate data to draw conclusions from. So before we dive into some of these eight surprises, I want to ask you, what was your biggest surprise, or the thing that that made you happiest, or, you know, like there had to been about this project that just delighted your heart?

Michael Sytsma  13:39

Yeah. Shaunti likes to say nothing surprised me. And many times stuff would come back, and she was blown away. And I was like, Yeah, I kind of expected that, but there were two things that I would say really jumped out. One is, we know the importance of a couple communicating, of them talking about it, but when the data came back, it was just, it was truly remarkable at how significant the difference was if we look at couples who are communicating well versus couples who are communicating average or poorly, the couples that were communicating well far out of the other couples in things like frequency and marital happiness and sexual happiness and happiness with each other, all of the factors they were much higher in. So one of the surprises was just how big of a difference effective communication makes. The second one go ahead,

Shannon Ethridge  14:35

well, I was going to ask, What do you feel like is the biggest factor that keeps couples from openly communicating about this part of their lives.

Michael Sytsma  14:46

I think there are, you know, our sexuality is so complex. It’s so central to who we are, and we have our internal messages that keep us in a state of fear or shame. Aim of doubt, of that keep us holding it close. I’m afraid if I reveal Myself, you won’t like what you see. You won’t think it’s okay. And so it’s easier to hide, especially something that is so close, most of us haven’t really wrestled through ourselves. You know, what we really think and and how we manage our own story. I can’t tell you how many times I’m sitting in the office and I ask a question, and especially wives will look at me and say, nobody’s ever asked me that before. I don’t know what I think. You know, I don’t know what I like. I don’t know what so if we don’t know ourselves well, it’s tough to share it with with our spouse, right? And often when they do, they guess wrong. And we’ve proven that we also have these cultural messages, both from a macro culture and from the smaller culture that we live in, and those messages are either or often both, a don’t talk about this. It’s it’s not okay to talk about it. You need to keep this sacred. You need to keep it quiet. It’s a shame based thing. Or we have the opposite of we have all of these images and fantasies that are far beyond what we think we could ever meet or might even not want to meet, and we’re caught in the middle between, yeah, I don’t want to talk about that. Don’t find that interesting, and maybe I’m supposed to, but I don’t, and the messages of, don’t talk about it, it’s not okay to talk about it. So we get pinched in a in the mix of a bunch of different factors that make it tough for couples to openly just sit down and be curious with each other. Wait, how do you work? Wait, what do you like you don’t like when I do that? Yeah, how do I not get hurt and wounded when you say you don’t like what I do? How do I lean in and stay curious? Yeah, truly seek to understand my spouse. And

Shannon Ethridge  17:04

how can you find out what your spouse is most curious about or interested in without interpreting that as pressure? Did the theme of feeling pressure come up substantially in this study?

Michael Sytsma  17:17

It didn’t come up a lot in the study we didn’t look specifically added. It comes up clinically all the time, of course, that we’ll see anytime you mention something, somebody feels pressured to perform. I need to measure up to that. And a big part of the clinical piece is to say, how do we manage that is pressure? Because sometimes there is pressure, but that doesn’t mean I have to conform to it, and it doesn’t mean that I have to take that pressure on. I can stand up to it and invite you to join me in maybe a different space and

Shannon Ethridge  17:54

confidence Michael, which is kind of does,

Michael Sytsma  17:58

and it takes right, and it takes couples being curious about each other. It takes couples, which we talk about an entire chapter, and then chapter nine is all about we didn’t title it this, but it’s about grieving. It’s about accepting your spouse that they’re not always all of what you want, and your sex life isn’t always going to be exactly what you want. And when we accept that my fantasy might not happen, it allows us to lean in and truly be curious about who our spouse actually is, and what can we create together that’s really rich, rather than bringing all of that pressure to the table

Shannon Ethridge  18:36

the negotiation process, I think that sex and communication, physical activities, what, what kind of fantasies you discuss and don’t discuss. All of it is a negotiation process.

Michael Sytsma  18:48

And yeah, and the, the primary theory that I follow in sex therapy identifies that sex is communication, everything that we do in that encounter, from the moment that we we we Spark, we let our spouse know I’m interested through how we touch and kiss, the way we engage, all the way through the process, well past the the kind of the apex of the event we’re communicating to each other, we’re negotiating a level of intimacy and a level of oneness, and how much am I going to truly seek to know you, and how much am I going to allow you to know me? That’s all communication. So it it is, and it is tough work to get it rich and to get it good,

Shannon Ethridge  19:40

and that whole concept of sometimes sex can feel like work can snuff people out for, you know, at the starting gate. But what I like to remind people is that, you know what work is something that we can sink our teeth into and really get engaged with and feel really proud of when we produce something wonderful. So the. Word work shouldn’t automatically have negative connotation to it, but I also like to see couples consider their sex life as much play as it is work, maybe a combination of the two. How’s that?

Michael Sytsma  20:10

Well, I think our best play happens when we focus on it and we make it better, you know, so whether you’re into tennis or into fishing or if you’re into hunting or you’re into crocheting, whatever you however you play, the more you work at it, the more you fine tune it, the richer it gets, and the more you enjoy it, anything that’s really worth us fully drinking in and enjoying. We’ve attended to, we’ve focused on, we’ve gotten better at it, and many times do couples do step in expecting this to be an arena that if I pick the right spouse, it’s just going to be natural and easy. I tell them that usually natural, natural, easy sex is not good. So

Shannon Ethridge  20:57

much more complex, and especially when it’s when you’re negotiating these intimate physical activities with someone that you’re also expecting to take out the trash and help you get the kids to school, you know that whole domestic part of it can really overshadow the play and the work and the enjoyment fulfillment.

Michael Sytsma  21:17

So which which does lead a bit to the second surprise for me, and that was we’ve always taught that the more kids you have in the home, the more difficult having a healthy sex life is going to be because of the high level of distraction. There’s more going on in the home. And so when the data came back and we looked at couples who have zero kids, 123, or more kids, I expected it to be really clear that as they had more kids, the sexual frequency would drop. Totally shocked that it was the opposite. In fact, so shocked

Shannon Ethridge  21:52

how many

Michael Sytsma  21:53

kids? Oh, that’s one theory, you know. But I was so shocked that I went back and redid it several times. And then I looked at the other the individual survey. So not just the couple survey, but those that are married, but we didn’t have their spouse’s responses, and they said the same thing that the couples who are sexless, which, like other studies that are coming in, in this covid, post covid era, we’re seeing sexual frequency drop quite a bit, and we’re seeing a high number, between 20 and 30% of couples being sexless, having sex less than months a month. And the number of couples that were sexless, that had no kids, were extremely high. The number of couples that have three or more kids that were sexless was extremely low. Those that were having sex daily or more, was really small in the number of couples that had no kids, and it was running about 10% in the couples that have three or more kids. That was a true surprise me.

Shannon Ethridge  23:00

I have a theory. It’s totally conjecture, but when you have no kids, you have a tendency to immerse yourself in your own career hobbies, like you can be totally selfish when you have a slew of kids, the bedroom is the one place that you can escape to to get away from them all. Once in

Michael Sytsma  23:16

a while. I like that theory. I like that theory. I do think it has to do with values, that couples who have more kids, you know, probably have a slightly different value of marriage and sex and the relationship and sanctity and and so that’s my theory. I think it fits right in with that we don’t really know. Our data doesn’t tell us, but that was a surprise to me. Yeah,

Shannon Ethridge  23:38

absolutely. Talk to me about mismatched sex drives. I’m quite surprised at the number of couples that sit on my couch and talk about the mismatch in their desire as if it’s unusual. Most people don’t realize how common this is. So what did you learn about mismatch sex drive?

Michael Sytsma  24:03

Well, we learned that only 22% of couples reported similar levels of sexual desire. So if we ask the husband, if it’s totally up to you, how frequently would you engage in sexual activity with your wife? And we ask the wife the same thing with their husband, and we compare their answers, and that gives us what we call a different score. And of those that were reporting the same amount, only 22% so that means that we’ve got, you know, almost 80% of couples, 78% of couples that are wanting differing levels. But what was fascinating is when we ask, what, how often would your spouse like to people generally get it off. People do not. It depends for some couples. It’s for some husbands, especially their ranking their wife. Too low for some wives, they’re ranking their husband too high. It tended to do not as much with husband and wife. It tended to do with who was the high desire and who was the low desire. So a high desire is going to underestimate the low desire, person’s desire. And in my dissertation, I showed that that’s really the source of the pain. Is that misattribution, that misunderstanding of each other, because the couples that were that were divergent from each other, where they were saying different numbers, they were not very far apart. Most of them were only one number away from each other. So he might say that he likes it. And in fact, the the average in my office is, I’ll look at a wife and say, How often would you like to have sex if it’s totally up to you? And she’ll say one to two times a week. And I look at the husband, and he’ll say two to three times a week. And I look at him and say, there’s not much difference between two and two, but they they tend to be off by about that once, once a week, maybe. And so what we found is that couples are really far closer than what they thought they were. And again, that goes back to the communication, if they can sit down and really talk about it. But what’s fascinating is when that couple sitting in front of me, and right about a quarter of the couples, the wife is the higher desire. In about in about half of the couples, the husband’s the higher desire. And then about little less than a quarter, with rounding the they’re the same. So if we stick with the stereotype, the husband looks over at his wife and goes, Wait one to two times a week, seriously because he thought she’d say, once a month or never? And she says, yeah. And then he says, he looks at her and he says, Then, why aren’t we having it that often? And I interrupt, and I say, that’s the right question. You guys walked into my office saying, What’s wrong with you? What’s wrong with me? That our desires don’t match up, and that question is not a very helpful question, because it’s probably not even really accurate. The question of we both want it more than what we’re getting, which the research was extremely clear on, that we both want it more than what we’re getting, what’s getting in the way, that’s the right question to ask. That’s

Shannon Ethridge  27:18

the powerful question. Repeat again. Michael, I want everybody to, like tune in and record this question in their brain. Hit a nail on the head. Well, let

Michael Sytsma  27:28

me contrast it. Most couples come in saying, What’s wrong with me or what’s wrong with you, and when they shift to what’s wrong that we don’t have it as much as we would like, neither of us are having it enough what’s getting in the way? And when they when they move it to that question, they move from opposite sides of the table, where they’re battling each other and they’re defending and they’re blaming and to the same side of the table trying to figure out what’s going on out there. Maybe I want it more than you, but neither of us are getting it enough, and we can start to look at things like one being way too tired, or, you know, I haven’t felt cared for you by all week. And you walk in and you want to do that. Or, man, it just seems like everything I do, you criticize, and it makes it difficult for me to want to get naked with you. I’m going to get criticized there too. And they start to talk about the real life issues that are getting in the way right and making

Shannon Ethridge  28:26

outside of the bedroom that impact or

Michael Sytsma  28:29

within the relationship, yeah, that aren’t necessarily sexual related, that keep them from getting naked and unashamed with each other,

Shannon Ethridge  28:38

yeah, and how powerful for them to discover that realization that we, actually, neither one of us, are having as much sex as we want. Or let me just throw in this little clarifier that I suspect in the back of my mind, it may not be about frequency, quantity, it may be about quality. Like, what do you what do you say to the lower desire partner. That about the this topic of maybe if the quality was there, the frequency wouldn’t be as much of an issue is that a valid

Michael Sytsma  29:15

depends on the it depends on the higher desire spouse. Sometimes they’re Helen singer Kaplan, way back in the 70s, she talked about sexual desires being like a hunger, a food hunger, and that some people just have a higher hunger than others. And so for some individuals, had had a wife in my office recently who was saying, I really, I really want sex at least three times a week or three times a day, and the husband, and she’s middle age, and husband, since I’m approaching 50, I’m not sure I can do that anymore. And and it wasn’t about quality for her, they when they did engage, both. To them, talked about how rich and how good it was. She just wanted a very high frequency. And I’ll work with plenty of couples where the husband is asking for sex multiple times a week, and it’s not about the quality. It is for them about the frequency, but for many couples, they have the frequency, but it’s not good, it’s bad, and that doesn’t help them to want it more.

Shannon Ethridge  30:23

That’s the big issue of it may not be that your partner doesn’t enjoy sex. Maybe they just don’t enjoy sex the way you insist on having it,

Michael Sytsma  30:34

or often, what I see is one spouse doesn’t know what they like, and they’re not being selfish enough. And I know that that language gets difficult in our culture, but I do think good sex doesn’t happen until we’re selfish about it, and we say, What do I like, and what do I want, and what do I enjoy? And we figure that out, and then we teach our spouse and we accept influence from each other to figure out what’s rich for us together. Yeah, and mostly couples I work with, they don’t do that. They haven’t that requires a level of communication that they haven’t mastered yet or even really started on well.

Shannon Ethridge  31:15

And for people who really struggle with that word selfish, and a lot of people were raised in homes that that was like the worst thing you could be is selfish, self aware, just being self aware of just knowing what you want or or how you want to be talked to, or have wide variety of potential avenues. I could note there I want to rewind the tape to make sure that I heard you right? Because I’m sure that my listeners are going, Wait a minute, rewind. What did he did you just say that a woman wanted sex three times a day? Or did yes a week really no

Michael Sytsma  31:51

a day? Yeah,

Shannon Ethridge  31:52

wow. It was the expectation that there would be three orgasms a day. Or was this just like we’re gonna feels and and fondle each other. And no, she

Michael Sytsma  32:04

was looking for intercourse three times a day. And we don’t talk an awful lot about wives who are on that high range of, you know, desire that is going to be outside of kind of the normal bell curve for for most women. And no, definitely not. And like I said, you know, we’re running pretty close to a quarter of the couples that we’re talking about, depending on which study and who we’re asking, where the wife is, asking where the wife is a higher desire individual and and like I said, most of the time that’s only one, sometimes two notches away from each other, but there are definite couples where the wife is far higher in her desire. And what’s fascinating is, you know, if something happens, something unfortunate happens in that Mary Jens, and they get into another relationship, they might be the lower desire in it, or it may, may reverse. Often it has to do with just pairing in it, but we will see a lot of wives, and the the wives that come in with a higher desire are often asking very different questions and are in a lot of pain because our culture tends to not make space for them. Doesn’t allow that her husband doesn’t always want her, that he’s not chasing her around the kitchen.

Shannon Ethridge  33:30

What’s wrong with me, that I can’t get his attention to the level right? Or what’s

Michael Sytsma  33:35

wrong with him? You know, what’s he doing? Because all guys always want it. My husband doesn’t and and that’s not that’s actually not true, but because of that mythology, they get really down on themselves or on their husband and that that again, they’re back on opposite sides of the table, and we have to pull them back to the same side,

Shannon Ethridge  33:54

right? So to wrap up our conversation, which feels so premature, because I could literally talk to you about this for hours. What words of either advice or encouragement do you have for the partner who either feels pressure because he or he is the lower desire partner, and what advice or encouragement do you have for the one who feels rejected, perhaps because he or she is the higher desire partner. What comfort from your pastor’s heart? Because I know, I know that even deeper than the clinical part, even deeper than the academic part, I know that you are a pastor at heart. So right? What comfort can you offer?

Michael Sytsma  34:39

Well, the first thing I tell them to, you know, once they have an ability to communicate just in life about finances and kids and everything, to lean in and work on a vision together. What do we want our sexual relationship to look like? What do we want and accept influence from each other and start with the. Vision, rather than start problem focused, what are we striving toward? And if we can agree on what both of us are striving toward, and we can believe in each other, then when it doesn’t hit what we’re striving toward, we can extend a lot more grace that allows us to to step up and to work on ourself. You know, if the vision is we’re going to have sex. Let’s say, you know, the average for couples who were having sex, remove the sex as couples, it was 1.3 times per week. So let’s say we, we’re going to shoot for sex every three to four days as a couple, then when it’s not happening. That’s my goal. I don’t feel pressure from you to meet that goal. That’s my goal, and I’m going to strive towards that goal, and you’re going to strive towards that goal. Towards that goal, and together, we’re we will probably meet it, and I don’t have to feel pressure, because I’m stepping in and I’m reclaiming what I want for me, because that’s part of the vision, and that allows us both to be centered, allows us to stay curious, allows us to believe in each other and move forward in a far different type of a pathway, different spirit, different attitude, where now we’re partners together, striving to make this better. One of us is not in the one down position, and one of us is trying to make the other be who we want them to be. That that process just doesn’t work. That’s it’s not a biblical process. It’s not a cultural process that works us standing side by side, fighting for the same thing, that tends to work.

Shannon Ethridge  36:28

I love that collaboratively working together toward the same common goal, not being aggressive, not being passive, but being assertive, that you are going to lean in toward this goal, together with each other, right? Love it. Love it. So Michael, towards a goal we’ve co created. I say that again,

Michael Sytsma  36:52

towards a goal that we have co created. There

Shannon Ethridge  36:55

you go. There you go, working together as a team. That’s what marriage should be all about. So Michael, where can people get their hands on the secrets of sex and marriage by Dr Michael Sytsma and Shaunti Feldhahn.

Michael Sytsma  37:10

So it can be bought at any wherever you buy your books, be that Amazon or Barnes and Noble or Walmart or Target or or you can go to secrets of sex and marriage.com you can learn more about the book. You can read more about the research behind it. We’ve answered some questions that people are already asking about the book on that website, and there are links to places. You can purchase it there as well, and you can find information on how to reach us individually.

Shannon Ethridge  37:37

Fantastic. And I always encourage people to try to purchase their books directly from the authors, to support the work. As you all just heard, they’ve invested $120,000 in the research methodology, not to mention the time and the energy and the love that they have poured into this book. And so please support it. I would encourage you, if you have any kind of groups, be that a friend group, a book club group, a Sunday school group, a marriage support group, any group that you can get to go through this book together. I just think that that could be so beneficial to open up lines of communication, not just in your marriage, but also in your friends marriages and with one another, because we all need to be talking in a more in a healthier way about this very topic. Michael, thank you so much for coming back on the show. It is always a delight to have you.

Michael Sytsma  38:31

You bet I appreciate it. It’s been an honor.

Shannon Ethridge  38:34

Thank you. Well, we appreciate you tuning in to another episode of sexual competence on tap with Shannon Etheridge and friends. If you would like to chime in on the conversation, shoot us an email at on tap at Shannon etheridge.com we love you for listening and we thank you for tapping on us.