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SPEAKERS

Dan Purcell (host), Dr. Michael Sytsma

Michael Sytsma  00:00

We know healthy couples spend time sorting through their financial vision, right? No, spend time talking through the kind of parenting they want to do. And, you know, even into adult children. Who do we want to be as parents and grandparents and what do we want in terms of spiritual intimacy, sexual intimacy is no different. It starts with vision. Who do we want to be in and how then do we start the process of getting there?

Dan Purcell  00:24

Welcome to the Get your marriage on podcast. I’m your host, Dan Purcell, a Christian marriage and intimacy expert and coach. I’m on the mission to help couples have the best sex and most emotionally intimate marriages possible. Our episodes cover topics you’ve always wondered about, and are packed with practical advice designed to help you take your marriage to the next level. This episode is for anyone interested in investing in their sexual relationship from an early stage to set the foundation for a fulfilling and intimate connection in the future. My wife and I are beginning our fifth decade in life. We had a discussion the other night about what kind of sex life we want to have in our 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s and beyond. Having a long term vision for your sex life will bring up things that are important to address. For example, you might find it difficult to find pleasure in sex, or might have some hang ups around sex that you want to overcome, or you might have a tendency to withdraw emotionally when you feel rejected, or it might be time to finally address the underlying causes of your premature ejaculation. There are many resources out there to help you improve your sex life, including coaching books and sex therapists. In fact, today’s guest is Dr Michael sytsma. He’s a licensed sex therapist and evangelical pastor. Michael is the author of an excellent book called The secrets of sex and marriage. I absolutely loved his insights about the importance of exploring sensuality and pleasure in various aspects of life, not just sexual experiences. In this episode, you’ll hear us talk about the role of mindfulness and being present in one’s body, as well as the significance of connecting arousal and emotional intimacy and connection with the relationship. We’ll emphasize that a healthy and fulfilling sex life requires a holistic approach that considers spiritual, emotional, physical and relational aspects. Most of all, we talk about being seductive to our spouse and what that really means, and sometimes building a great sex life requires grieving the things you’re not going to be getting out of the relationship. We’ve just announced our next in person marriage retreat in the Dallas Fort Worth area, from october 26 to 29th our retreats are for married couples that are in otherwise good marriages but wish for something better. Intimately, this retreat is like a vacation for the two of you, where you also get to work with me and my team to strengthen your marriage. Intimately. Our retreats are fun. They’re rewarding, and they will also challenge you and challenge your thinking to help you see your patterns you often fall into that keep you stuck. They’re also super romantic, by the way, and you will laugh a lot and make lifelong friends all to make sure that you’re invited. This retreat is limited to just 20 couples, and it will sell out, as we have with our past retreats. So don’t delay. You can find more details on our website@gayamarijohn.com click on retreats and then DFW retreat. Dr Michael sytsma, welcome to the Get your marriage on podcast. How are you today?

Michael Sytsma  03:26

I am really good. It’s an honor to be here with you. I appreciate it. Thank you.

Dan Purcell  03:30

I love your work. I’ve read a lot of the things you’ve done. You’re brilliant thought leader in this space. So it’s really an honor to have you on the podcast today.

Michael Sytsma  03:38

Ooh, I like that. Yeah.

Dan Purcell  03:39

So I have a question, how did you and your wife meet?

Michael Sytsma  03:43

So we met at a small Christian liberal arts college, and I was there for pre med. She was there as a nursing student, and we met, started dating, and one of the kind of fun things about us was just put it in a video that I did recently, is one of our early dates was to an autopsy. People have a variety of responses to that, so I’m thinking we’re pretty creepy, or we’re pretty strange, but it was still fascinating for both of us. You know, a way to connect around something that was adventurous to

Dan Purcell  04:12

1. That’s great, Oh, that’s good. That’s what he’s gonna that’s when you knew she had your heart, or maybe is the cadavers heart.

Michael Sytsma  04:24

She’s been a hospice nurse now for over 30 years, working in that field, and that I went into working with marriages and pastoring, and we both say that we could not do each other’s jobs, but still have some of that core interest in the physiology and how God designed just so amazingly,

Dan Purcell  04:41

that’s good. And you’re also a pastor first, and that’s one of the things you say, which I love hearing you say that, yeah, I am ordained by the Wesleyan Church and appointed as pastor to building interim marriages. And that is truly how I see myself and how I approach all my clients. Is through that pastoral i. Astro heart, that’s good. And I’m assuming a lot of clients come to you because they’re confused about reconciling sexuality and spirituality. They kind of see them as like oil and water. Sometimes,

Michael Sytsma  05:11

often people actually don’t come in stating that it takes a little bit before they realize they have some incompatible views. Yes, their faith system has taught them one thing, but their experience has taught them something else. Or they they want something that seems incompatible with their faith system, or they realize their faith system is interfering with their sexual functioning, or their ability to connect and be intimate. So there is a fair amount of work in in reconciling many times it’s deconstructing the just sexual script, or helping them to sort through their experience with a different story.

Dan Purcell  05:48

Is there anyone in particular that comes up? You don’t have to say their names or anything, of a good typical scenario of someone you’ve helped kind of really deconstruct that so that they can help reconstruct that that serve them better in their marriage.

Michael Sytsma  06:00

Probably the most typical is going to be, and it’s not just from a Christian perspective. Many times the church is beat up or something that is more human, but anybody that comes from a strong conservative religious, legalistic so working with conservative, Orthodox Jewish people, working with conservative, especially certain flavors of conservative Christianity. I don’t work much with those from the Muslim community, but friends of mine who do experience the same kind of thing. So anybody coming from a very legalistic that locks down, adds a lot of shame, adds a lot of guilt, adds unnecessary boundaries and rules to our sexuality, and then, you know, we desire to do good. We desire to do right. We desire to get it well. And often those rules that we have been taught that we accept then begin to shut us down, restrict us one of my favorite stories is from St Augustine, and you know, early on, he wrestled with why attempting to follow Christ. He was still drawn to the wild, the crazy side of town and to those areas, and then eventually he gave up and just moved into a monastery, and he was writing a young groom, and he said, for many, total abstinence is easier than perfect moderation. And my paraphrase of that is, for many, repression is easier than self discipline when it comes to sexuality. And I think some of the message that many conservative groups teach is that sex is so powerful and so potentially destructive that we need to need almost a prohibitionistic approach to it, right, and so

Dan Purcell  07:40

you can’t handle it, or that’s the message they get, right, right? And and

Michael Sytsma  07:45

that’s reinforced when we have so many that say sex is a need, which you’ve read the book, I strongly disagree with that on multiple levels. But when we teach somebody that sex is a need and you’re not going to be able to manage it, we set people up failure. We set people up for repression. And sex is not a light switch that you just flip it on and works well, you know, you you lock it down, you repress it for long enough, and it takes a lot of work to get it started up and to get it healthy, right? So that would be, that would be the typical that I’m going to work with, uh, then if you add trauma into it. You know, it even locks it down more and adds a fear, another layer of fear, base that we have to work through to help people to reach a point of embracing and allowing their sexuality and their eroticism and their sensuality to truly be good of God given and a valuable part of who they are.

Dan Purcell  08:42

That’s great. That reminds me, there’s a couple I’m coaching. She’s done all the right things, checked all the right boxes as a youth and as an adolescent. You mean the boxes she was talking? Yes, that was she was told to Exactly, exactly, always wear modest clothing, meaning, like, covered up, always, always fast forwarded those scenes and movies. Didn’t hang out with people that were more, in her view, more rebellious, I guess you could say, right. And now, didn’t even kiss her husband until they were engaged, because she wanted her first kiss to mean a lot of commitment. And now she’s years into the marriage. Sex is really difficult for her. She finds no pleasure in it, and she doesn’t, I don’t get it. What’s the whole fuss about? And of course, she experienced a lot of pain and sex in the first while, as in newlywed,

Michael Sytsma  09:30

I would not say that’s an of course, you know that happens. It’s a common

Dan Purcell  09:34

thing. Yes, correct. It isn’t, of course, things, things are correct, and there

Michael Sytsma  09:39

are. So there’s so many things that contribute to that the teaching is we. We have some minimal research that suggests that the teaching sometimes contributes to it. Our sexual script definitely does. And a lot of times the physiology, you know, oral birth control is one of the primary reasons for for sexual. Pain. So there’s a lot of things that contribute to that, but you’re saying that is a part of her story as well. So all of those things have helped her to lock down. Yes,

Dan Purcell  10:08

would you help this person like that kind of work through that themselves?

Michael Sytsma  10:13

Well, the first thing is, what does she want? You know, does she even want to explore a essential sexuality? If she’s saying, What’s the big deal that may not be of interest to her, and if it’s not of interest to her, then there’s not going to be an awful lot of progress made. It may be of interest to her spouse, but not to her.

Dan Purcell  10:34

That reminds me of a joke like, how many therapists does it take to change a light bulb? Just one. But the light bulb happens to really want to change.

Michael Sytsma  10:44

There’s, there’s some truth to that. If, and if she is stepping into this thing I have, I have no interest in exploring my sensuality, no interest in learning to to deeply appreciate it, then it may be difficult to do,

Dan Purcell  10:57

gotcha. And in this case, she is interested. She’s the one say, Okay, I’ve been married long enough I’m sick of this. I want to start to enjoy this part of my life more.

Michael Sytsma  11:06

So some of it would be, we would approach it from a medical perspective. There are some things that we can do that obviously, in coaching, you’re not, you’re not going to be able to do, but a good sexual medicine specialist, there are some creams. There are some things that we can do that help to heighten some of the nerves into the awareness, but we would do we’d start probably with something that just helps her to lean into general sensuality. So I want to know what, what foods Does she enjoy, and can she really sensually enjoy those feeds, for example, what is the taste and what is the smell? And so we’re looking to see, is she able to be a sensual individual in any areas of life? Often, we’re for committed Christians, followers of Christ. I want to know about their worship. You know, are they able to truly engage in worship and allow it to take over their hearts and to feel that sense of being present with God. And so, you know, when they go swimming, are they just doing the activity, or are they drinking in the sensations of it and helping them to practice tuning into their bodies doing what you know we in the therapy field would call mindfulness learning to truly be mindful, and then she will begin to shift that focus to being mindful of sexual arousal. Once somebody starts to be mindful of the sexual arousal, then we have to look at their evaluation of it. Do they view it as positive? Do they view it as enjoyable? Is this a good thing, or have they spent so much, so many years shutting it down. For some people, there is. There’s a group within the sex therapy field that believes if you shut those pathways down long enough, it may be difficult. A few think it’s impossible. I don’t think it’s impossible, but to reignite those nerves and to redevelop them, and sometimes that’s where the meds can assist in and reinforcing the neural pathways and the sensations that help us to tune into it while we’re strengthening the awareness, strengthening the arousal. The sex therapist, the sexual medicine doctor, whoever they’re seeing, would help them to sort through, are there physiological arousal issues? Because if you’re not experiencing arousal, it’s really difficult to, you know, to enjoy it, to drink it in. And some people have a disconnect for a variety of medical reasons there, right? And then it’s taking what she’s learning and bringing that into the marriage, you know, what helps her to experience arousal and teaching him? And can she see that arousal is a sign of the connection and of the intimacy, as opposed to a task that she needs to perform. Right? Pressure is rarely seductive. Pressure rarely facilitates arousal. It’s just not an accelerator in the process. No. So how do we how do we help her to move into it and help him to be Invitational. Help him to step back and create a space that is drawing that seductive, that’s wooing to her, that she wants to be a part of. And you know, many times I will ask a wife, what is seductive, what draws you? And they don’t have a clue. So that mindfulness helps them to become aware of what they like, what type of an environment, what type of even hot, cold, you know, what type of touch, what type of sounds in the background, what goes into it that helps her to tune into her body, to be aware of it, to allow it to get aroused, and to experience all of that as positive that slowly builds. It can take weeks, months or longer, for somebody who’s really actively working on it to make progress there. That

Dan Purcell  14:47

makes sense. I like how you said, like connecting arousal with, you know, connection, yes, this is rousing. This is good for relationship. This is good for our connection. Kind of like reinforce because of

Michael Sytsma  14:59

its. Just about, you know, I need to get around so I can have six orgasms in a row. Many people, especially many of the wives that are talked to, are like, well, I can do that, but I don’t care. That’s not of interest to me. So tying it to what’s important to them, and if we tie our sexuality to our bodies, people stop having sex sometime in their 50s, because their body starts being reliable. If we tie it to heart, to connection, to intimacy, to richer, deeper, more meaningful aspects, while not forgetting the body that has to be a part of it, but if it becomes the leader, we start to step away from sex. If the body is a part of sex, then I work with couples well into their 80s, even early 90s that are are still pursuing a rich, healthy sex life, because it’s not just their bodies that’s good. That’s the way I want to be into my just

Dan Purcell  15:57

turned 40, you know, to our 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, even we want to have a great, vibrant sex life. Well, some

Michael Sytsma  16:05

research has shown that the nature of your sex life as you get into your 80s is really reflective of the nature of your sex life in your 40s. So you’re now’s the time, if

Dan Purcell  16:17

that’s the goal. What are some strategies a smart 40 something can do now that helps them set them up for success. Good.

Michael Sytsma  16:25

So that’s really not to tout the book, but that’s really what the book was designed for, the secrets of sex and marriage in us. You know, we wrote the book intentionally for couples to sit down and read it out loud to each other, and I tell the couples that I work with, the goal is not to get to the end of the book, the goal is to to read it out loud to each other. And one of the couples that early on did a podcast with us. They said, You know, we do that with a lot of books, and we’ll read a chapter and then we’ll talk about it. And we found that we in reading your book, we were reading like two sentences and getting long conversations about those two sentences was taking us forever to complete the book. And I said, perfect. That

Dan Purcell  17:07

good. Mission accomplished.

Michael Sytsma  17:10

You’re doing it. You’re doing it perfectly. And, you know, chapter two is just, you know, that’s the draw people in. It’s a lot of the stats and numbers and stuff. I think the richness starts in chapter three, where we talk about developing vision. And so in the 40s, if not earlier, I want couples to really have a conversation about, what do we want it to look like? Can a couple agree on the statements you just made that in our 80s, we want this kind of a sex life. And many times, when I ask couples in their 40s, they’re like, well, we won’t be having sex when we’re 80. Why not? Right? They don’t think about vision. If that’s your vision, you’re not setting yourself up for it well. But our bodies aren’t going to work right then? Is that all this sex is, you know, it’s just your body. And so getting them starting to envision, and what is sex going to be like then? And why would we engage sexually? You know, when our bodies aren’t working well, and beginning to incorporate that, what I talk in chapter 10 about pursuing oneness, pursuing the yada, and keeping it incarnate, both fully spiritual and fully body, yes, and helping couples to really think through that and start to make plans and then talking through the details even. What would we like to see in terms of frequency and do we want it to be erotic? Do we want it to be nurturing? Do we want it to be functional? Do we want it to be playful? What would we feel good about? What? What do we want it to look like? You know, are there any practices that we’d like to explore any that are definitely no do not belong in the bedroom, and just helping couples to begin to craft a vision of what they want that part of their marriage to look like. We know, healthy couples spend time sorting through their financial vision, right? Spend time talking through the kind of parenting they want to do, and, you know, even into adult children, what, how do who do we want to be as parents and grandparents, and what do we want in terms of spiritual intimacy, sexual intimacy is no different. It starts with vision. Who do we want to be in and how then do we start the process of getting there? Great, now that we

Dan Purcell  19:18

type vision, I bet some people come to you and just want tactics like, tell me how to orgasm, or help me i prematurely ejaculate, tell me what I need to do, give me some medicine, or tell me, like they just want the tactic, tactic, tactic, tactics without the, you know, overall vision or strategy, where they want to head first. So it’s important to kind of have that vision. Is what I’m gathering from this. What are some real good principles? Maybe seduction is one of them. Can you talk more on what strategies make up a great, healthy sex life for the long term?

Michael Sytsma  19:52

Definitely, even if they come in saying struggling with reliability of orgasms or even having orgasms, you’re exactly right. It starts with, well, let’s look at the setting. Let’s look at the context you’re trying to develop this within. Do you have a healthy view of sex what we talked about earlier, do you have a healthy vision? Are you providing safety? Are you providing privacy? Do you trust each other with this? Is there a sense of pressure? Do we have full consent with each thing that we’re doing? So we start by looking at the context of it, because many times people are doing things that really prohibit their goals, and they don’t realize that what I’m doing over here is destructive to what I’m in therapy for. So we have to tie those together and help to shut it down, and then it’s, yeah, what kind of people are we bringing to the party here? And that’s where you named one of my favorite words that that kind of pushes the buttons. But, you know, that’s my goal in life, is to perturb the system. So, right? So I like to ask people about how seductive Are you? You know, when you’re dating, you show up and you be your best self, because you’re always wooing, you’re always drawing. You want this person to see the best you and to be sold for you. And I call that being seductive. You know, seduction requires a requires involvement of both people. You know, if somebody comes up and tries to seduce you and you’re not open to it doesn’t matter what they do. It’s not going to work. If our spouse is seducing us and we’re open to it, it’s going to work. And so it’s learning what draws our spouse, what what invites them to connect more intimately with us, and what draws me. And you know, many times husbands can tell me exactly what is seductive, and the wives can tell me what the husband finds seductive. I’m often dismayed at how many wives say, Well, I don’t know what seduces me. That’s

Dan Purcell  21:51

so true. Because as we’re talking I’ve got to list like 10 things already, right for me, this is what seduces me. And then I’m wondering the same thing, what would my wife respond? I see this is a typical challenge. Uh huh.

Michael Sytsma  22:05

It is and and honestly, you know, people often ask me, what is the most common thing that wives will say? And the probably the most common thing I hear is it has to do with being a good dad. You know, when he is yes, seeing Papa Bear and he’s caring for my kids, that seduces me. You know, when he’s showing grace and tenderness, while he’s showing strength and boundary. Didn’t you know that that mix that is so tough for us to pull off, that that is seductive? Um, but sometimes it’s the way he cares for me, sometimes it’s the way he provides it. You know, just like for us as men, there are some things that are kind of standard, but for some guys, it’s when she just affirms me verbally. For some it’s when she gives me that flirty look. You know, there’s so many different things that draw us and learning what draws us, and sharing that with each other, and then going and being that person on a consistent basis, yes, and not bringing the tired, wore out, grumpy person home, taking that person to work. And so we bring the best in who we are home. You know, these are the most important people to us. How do we behave our best when we’re around them? That’s the seductive piece. And then we start to talk through, you know, how do we start this process? And many times, people are sparking the event in a way of once again, that is slamming the brakes on, and we talk through that and then the sensations of it. What do you do to gear your bodies and your heart up? Often, we will do things that our spouse just tolerates, and I’m like, let’s, let’s get that out of the bedroom. No matter what it is. It’s amazing. Sometimes people say it’s fine to kiss, not the way you do, uh huh, uh

Dan Purcell  23:48

huh.

Michael Sytsma  23:49

Literally, that’s not working for your spouse.

Dan Purcell  23:51

I do listen, listen like, as you’re talking, I’m thinking about another couple coaching, where they’re in an essentially sexless marriage, and he’s made some choices that aren’t helping the situation any better, but he’s in there in this particular marriage, he’s the one that has more desire for sex than she does, and he thinks the reason why they’re not having sex is he’s not manly enough, he’s not muscular enough, he’s not handsome enough. And in the session, it’s, she’s telling him clearly, I I just crave like conversation with you. I crave like emotional connection. Like, that’s that she’s basically revealing. Like, this is what I find seductive. But he has a hard time accepting that,

Michael Sytsma  24:37

yep, and see, it’s great that she’s aware. This is what draws my heart, right? And then as she hands it to them, I look at these guys and go, Dude, she just handed you gold. Well,

Dan Purcell  24:47

she said it in a very angry way. Well, how come you don’t? How come you don’t? So, of course, it has been so many orders say those things, but still, yeah, he’s you’re still handing

Michael Sytsma  24:57

him gold. Yes, he can have. Take that and convert it and utilize it that is rich in the marriage, and it may be difficult for him to view it that way. You know, many times it’s possible, when they finally hear it, they look over and go, seriously, no, no, that can’t be true. Because it’s not true for you doesn’t mean it’s not for them, right? And yes, to step in and to explore it. How do I do that with you?

Dan Purcell  25:25

Right? How do people explore these turn ons again, the art of seduction, if they’re just new to this idea, new to this concept, but they really want to take the bull by the horns and really, like, figure this out for them.

Michael Sytsma  25:37

First, it takes a safe relationship, because we’re not willing to be curious. We’re not willing to be playful if it’s not safe, you know, if, if you’re continually putting me on, putting pressure on me to perform in a way that I’m not sure I can or I want to, we’re not going to be playful. We’re not going to be curious. So once again, we have to go back to that setting and get that right, and then be a seductive person who’s creating space and drawing or spells the end. But once we’ve done that, we do step in with a playfulness. We step in with a curiosity. And it’s, let’s try this and see what happens, you know, and and we see couples come in, we give them a variety of different exercises, depending on what the goal is. But it’s so fun when couples come in and they’re like, I had no idea my body would respond to this kind of touch and to see the playfulness in this couple as they’re beginning to explore, yes, it has to be safe, because if I start to explore and you blow up or cave in or run away, you just made it not safe. But if it can be, let’s not do that. Didn’t feel so good. And they both laugh about it and shift gears, then they will discover what works well for them. Too many times I hear, well, all my past lovers enjoyed this, you know, he should too, or she should too. I’m sorry you just just put a lock on their sensuality, right and and that’s not going to work. And that goes back to what you talked about, of the communication and the openness and the discovering self and each other. And even if something felt good to me with somebody else, it may not feel good to be with my spouse, my current spouse, right, right? Because the way we interact is different, and so helping couples to just be creative and explore it. But the toughest part there’s, like we said, creating the setting for it.

Dan Purcell  27:43

Um huh.

Michael Sytsma  27:44

If there’s a lack of consent, of if there’s a pressure, if there’s a demand for your favorite thing that I just find offensive, then we’re never going to really figure out what we do find sensual, right? Right? Exactly. And is that so important for couples to kind of create room for two in that relationship. Too. Very much. So, you know, one of my favorite passages in Scripture, he says, Honor the marriage bed and keep it sacred. And the language there, the Greek language for keep it sacred, is the concordance says, you know, void of anything that would rob it of them and vigor. And I love that way of of talking about it. Um, so I tell couples, anything that doesn’t add life and energy to your your sexuality needs to just be excised. It needs to be removed. Even if you think it’s okay, even if it’s okay for all of your friends and everybody else who are your marriage, it may need to be removed. There are so many things couples can do in this arena that add life and add energy. You know, stop getting focused on the things that are destructive or draining to you as a couple.

Dan Purcell  28:53

I love that that is so good. Is there anything else you want to share with us today? Any other ideas, concepts that help couples have a great sex life in their 60s, 70s and 80s. So

Michael Sytsma  29:08

chapter nine is on acceptance. And early on, I realized that a big part of a great marriage is grief my spouse will never be all of what I want. Yes, my sex life will probably never fit my dream ideal. Yes. And if I’m demanding that my spouse be neat and clean when they’re focused on big picture and, you know, they just don’t see the world that way. They don’t think that way, or if I want my spouse to be, you know, creative and playful and fun and and they are a logical, you know, detail oriented thinking person that shows up in the bedroom too. And if we don’t have a sense of, Oh, bummer, my spouse says I’m never going to be married to somebody who. Enjoys this right somebody who acts this way? If I can’t grieve the loss of who my spouse is not I can never lean in and accept who they are. If I’m always demanding this one sexual practice that I think is important to me, that they find offensive, it’s not going to work when I grieve the loss of that being a part of my sex life. Truly grieve it it’s gone forever. I’m never going to have that. Then I can let go and lean into well, let’s see what we can find. That’s fun for both of us, right? So I think acceptance, grieving, I spend so much time talking with couples about allowing their spouse to be human. You just have notice sex. What do you expect them to do they’re they’re going to be disappointed. That’s human. They you need to handle your disappointment in a healthy way, but to tell them, Don’t be disappointed. When you made a bid for connection and you turn them down, that’s not expecting them to be human. It’ll allow each other to be human same. You did a bid for connection and your spouse is not, doesn’t have the energy for it. That’s human. That’s not a rejection of you. Maybe it is, maybe if you behave badly, yes, but how do we let each other be human, to fully accept one another? And sometimes that means driving the loss of who our spouse is not so we can richly accept who they are. I like that. In fact, you can’t fully give yourself to your spouse. You can’t fully accept and receive them either. If you’re still holding back a part of your heart, anybody who’s done entitled to this or whatever right that entitled is, it is always destructive. I tell people I hate anything that starts with I deserve, it’s going to be followed by something destructive. Yes, eventually what you believe you deserve, you’re going to be destructive in order to get it right. So, yeah,

Dan Purcell  31:56

I think that that’s antithetical to good intimacy. It is, if people want to learn more about your book or you and what you do, what’s the best place for them to go? There

Michael Sytsma  32:06

book title, Secrets of sex in marriage.com, we’ll get them to a host of resources. You know, we talked briefly about pain. We have several articles on sexual pain. We have articles on other problems. How to find resources. They can also connect to my personal website, intimate marriage.org and the resources we have there through that link, some of the online teaching that I have available that couples can can go through and stream. A bunch of podcasts are there, including this one will be there, and all of that’s available on those linking through secrets of sex in marriage.com, so the excellent, best way to get started. Excellent, very good. Thank you. It’s been a pleasure to be with you. I appreciate it.

Dan Purcell  32:54

Thank you for listening to today’s episode. If you’re interested in accelerating growth in your marriage, either sexually, emotionally or spiritually, I want to invite you to work with me in my affordable coaching program called next level. More information about next level and my fun and sexy apps for couples are available at get your marriage on.com Please also don’t forget to subscribe to this podcast so you don’t miss a single episode. And be sure to tell your married friends, I promise they will thank you for life now, go get your marriage on.