Java with Julie – #504 Painful Intercourse, Fake Orgasms, And Aging Sex: Answers To The Most Popular Sex Questions

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SPEAKERS

Juli Slattery, Jennifer Degler, Michael Sytsma

Juli Slattery  00:01

Music. Well, hey, friend, welcome to Job with Julie, hosted by me. Julie Slattery, this podcast is a listener supported outreach of authentic intimacy, which is a ministry dedicated to helping people make sense of God and sexuality. Well, if you have been waiting for an authentic Q and A on sex and marriage. This is the episode for you, reclaim 2.0 our virtual conference is coming up in just three days, starting on February 15, and so we wanted to share this special conversation with you that was filmed as part of our reclaim conference back in 2022 it’s a live Q and A hosted by me with two frequent guests, to job with Julie Dr, Michael syttsma and Dr, Jennifer Degler, both of whom you can expect to see in this year’s virtual conference. Now in this episode, we tackle everything from how to deal with painful sex to differing desire levels and whole lot of things in between that this is a very straightforward conversation about sexual issues in marriage that often go unspoken about and unaddressed. So I hope it’s a blessing to you. And I have with me many guests today. We have hundreds of guests right here at Middleburg Heights, Ohio for the Reclaim conference. So hey guys, say hi to everybody. But I also have two returning guests on job with Julie, dr, Jennifer Degler and Dr, Michael sytsma. And you two have blessed us today with your wit and with your wisdom. And so we’re going to dive into listener questions. Our audience have provided the questions for us today, so we’re going to dive right in. You. Ready to go? Ready All right. How do you respond when a partner states, I only enjoy sex when you enjoy it and feeling pressured to fake enjoyment and sexuality, let’s jump right in.

Michael Sytsma  02:03

Want me to take that? Yeah? You want to start yeah? Sure, it is pressure when one is asking, when one gets all of their pleasure vicariously through the other. So to acknowledge that it is pressure, the invitation is for both of them to find pleasure for self as well, so that it balances it back out.

Juli Slattery  02:26

All right? And how would you respond?

Jennifer Degler  02:27

I would just say, to be communicating about and be curious about, okay, tell me like, what part of that feels pressure to you? Is there any part of me enjoying your enjoyment of sex that doesn’t feel like pressure. So I would just say, don’t let that just be the end of that question. Keep talking about it and understanding it more and more so that, because there may be where you think, Okay, well now I have to be like some wild woman all the time, or he’s not enjoying sex. Well, maybe that’s not actually what he means. And so to have more specific conversations, which is what you pointed out, that can be difficult for us to do, and I think those conversations a lot of times are good. If we can have them side by side and not looking face to face, that’s good.

Juli Slattery  03:19

So a long car trip, taking

Michael Sytsma  03:21

a walk or over a cup of coffee, over a

Juli Slattery  03:25

cup of coffee, just looking away, there you go. All right, I love this question because of the heart behind it. My spouse has almost no desire for sex. I feel hurt, frustrated and alone. My spouse would be happy to just be best friends and roommates. How do I balance patience and assertiveness in this area? And what I like about that question is, yes, there’s pain and frustration, but this person is writing in saying, I want to have the right heart attitude. So what advice would you give? Do you want to start? Jennifer,

Jennifer Degler  03:57

sure, I appreciate their heart too. And I would, I guess, say, what kind of support are you getting to take care of yourself and you may need, like a counselor, just to kind of walk beside you? Is there anyone else in your life that you trust, that you can share that journey with and say, you know, this is a really tough week. It’s Valentine’s and I know couples everywhere having this great sex, and my spouse is just not interested in that, and I’m hurting about that, but that would be a same sex person that you’re talking to through this to help support you, because your patience is going to wax and wane depending on how well you’re Taking care of yourself and your own health through that, and I think that helps add patience when we feel like someone out there that’s a safe person to talk to is supporting and encouraging me and seeing how hard this can be.

Juli Slattery  04:54

Michael, you talked about initiating desire and receptive desire. And I’m sure some of that is in this question, where you might even ask, maybe your spouse has desire, but it’s not what you define as desire.

Michael Sytsma  05:10

Correct. Some of it’s leaning in to understand, well, what does that statement even mean? What is desire to you? What does it take for you to experience desire, or have you flipped into a resistant, kind of reactive, saying no and pushing away from it? What would it take to invite you back to the table again? The couple and often desire issues, part of the snag with doing quick answers to stuff, while that’s critical, my mind goes to all of the different permutations of what may be going on here. And so if we step on toes, it’s truly not intentional, but to lean in and how do we understand what’s actually going on in this? And for most couples, they need a third party to assist with it once it’s gotten somewhat that entrenched, because we both get triggered so quickly, and to have a third party help the couple to talk about it. Is this a different kind of desire? There are various kinds of desire, or have you moved into resistance? Are you okay with being resistant because you stood at an altar and promised something, and now you’re changing the contract? You’re going from monogamy to celibacy, and that really wasn’t what was agreed on, but to put pressure on you is not helpful. So how do we shift this so that it’s Invitational and that you’re willing to step up into to being a part and

Jennifer Degler  06:30

just to tag on to that there, if you if you see, okay, my lower desire spouse is trying, like, maybe they’re going to talk to a therapist, maybe they’re doing passion pursuit with authentic intimacy that goes a long way towards helping a spouse be patient, as one spouse is really working in a recovery process or but if you see that your spouse like, I’m Really, I’m done with sex. I’m we’re just Hello, we’re friends. Then let’s bring a third party into this. Let’s bring a professional into this, because your spouse kind of has you over a barrel at that point, they basically have said, I’m done with this, and a lot of times, then you need a third party to help you negotiate. How do we get unstuck from this? Because bitterness will just build and build. It

Michael Sytsma  07:25

always means something, and it rarely means what the receiving spouse thinks it means. So I have plenty of wives that sit in my office and say, Why am I? Why won’t my husband? And the answers they come up for to rarely what’s going on, but he may not know why. He’s resistant, and it takes somebody sometimes to help us to unpack it.

Juli Slattery  07:43

So a lot of our answers to these questions involve inviting a third party. And some people are asking, Where do we find the right help? Like we’ve tried counseling and they really didn’t have this kind of expertise. Where do we find someone who understands trauma, sexual desire, sexual addictions. Can we just like multiply you? What advice do you have in terms of finding Christian therapists that really can navigate these waters for

Michael Sytsma  08:13

Christian sex therapists? So I’m a certified Christian sex therapist, which means we go through a lot of hours of education and then supervised experience and clinical practice. Abcst.org, American Board of christiansextherapists.org. Is a list of sex therapists who are certified and are Christian. Outside of that, it’s finding somebody who is trained as a clinician who has done some extra specialization or working in that area, has some knowledge in that area, and many times it’s talking to your physician, talking to a pastor, talking to others, to say who has been helpful. That gets tough when it’s a sexual issue, because it’s difficult to say to a friend, so we’re having this sexual issue. Who have you talked to? Who would you recommend? I was

Jennifer Degler  09:06

just thinking we’ve got both blessing and a curse because of the pandemic, the blessing is so much help is available online. Now that wasn’t available online, a lot of counseling has shifted to online. States are opening up their practice, some of their practice regulations, where you can practice and see somebody, maybe across the country, through telehealth. So even if you live in a rural area or an area that’s underserved that you don’t have a Christian sex therapist, you could possibly see somebody by telehealth. The flip side of that is a lot of people want counseling right now, and you may have to wait a while to get in, even if you have to get on somebody. Listen, I needed to go see a counselor recently, and I had to wait two months, and I just made my appointment and waited two months, I would have gotten you in soon. Thank you. I could have called you all, but go ahead, make the appointment and make. They’ll be able to get you in sooner if somebody cancels, and

Michael Sytsma  10:03

be a good be a good consumer, ask good questions and expect it to be helpful. And if it’s not helpful, they should be able to explain why. Yeah,

Juli Slattery  10:11

one of our sponsors is my counselor online, and I know many of their therapists, yes, have been trained through you. Right? Yes,

Michael Sytsma  10:19

he has a number of really good therapists that have gone through our training program, so they’re

Juli Slattery  10:23

right out there in the lobby. Take advantage of that. All right, here’s another question, how can I keep my mind pure while being intimate with my spouse?

Michael Sytsma  10:34

So let me do a quick exercise. Do not think about a pink elephant. Don’t imagine the big pink floppy ears, the big, thick pink side, or the rope like pink tail. What goes on in your mind. The more we work on not thinking about something almost the more power we put into it. But if I get you imagining a real African gray and you focus in on what that elephant looks like as it’s going through the planes and swinging its trunk, and the more real that elephant becomes, the more the pink one just disappears. The scriptural principle is, Set your affection on things above and things of earth will just fall away. And so the more we battled these distracting thoughts, the more power we almost give them. Where, if I tune into my spouse and I do what we’ve talked about today, of the intentionality, and I really be present in the moment with her. I present in the moment with him, and I’m drinking in the touch, and I’m aware of them. I’m looking into their eyes. That keeps me more grounded and focused in the distracting images become just that, images in the back of my mind that eventually fall away. It does take some some training and some some work at it, but they do fall away.

Juli Slattery  11:49

And what I love, Jennifer is you just gave us a lot of fodder for that in your teaching. You gave us very practical examples of I’ve heard you this say this before. What fires together, wires together, and so you’re rewiring your brain to respond to each other

Jennifer Degler  12:04

over and over, and being patient with yourself in that process. Because if you’ve paired sexual pleasure and arousal with pornographic images, then at first your mind goes there. But when it does, open your eyes, look at your spouse, really be with them. Maybe you need to like, like, I’m going to smell you. I’m going to be in this moment with you. And then the more positive experiences you have with them. When you are fully present with them, you’re wiring your brain again so that it, it learns, okay, arousal is paired with my spouse and not with these images. And it may be you’re doing great with that, and then all of a sudden you get your life gets more stressful and you have more intrusive images. And a lot of times that can just be an indicator, hey, life has gotten more stressful. I maybe I need to, you know, slow my schedule down and see that as it’s just old symptomatology rearing its ugly head, because I’m I need to take better care of myself and set some boundaries on around my time and that sort of thing we don’t have. It doesn’t mean you’re back to square one.

Juli Slattery  13:14

Yes, that’s right. Yeah. This is a journey, and sometimes two step forward, one step back. Dr, Michael, I know this one is one that you would like to answer. We have been married for five years and I still have sexual pain. Where can I find help? We are desperate to experience what Dr Jennifer was talking about today, yeah.

Michael Sytsma  13:33

First off, I want to apologize to the women we’re running right about 40% of women experience a significant amount of sexual pain that is just horrendous, and it takes the average woman six to nine visits to a sexual health professional before they can get it accurately diagnosed. That’s just wrong, and I’m sorry. You know, I joked with somebody. How many times joked with a man? How many times would you go see a professional because your penis wasn’t working maybe once. And yet these women are having to go back over and over again. A lot of it’s because we’re still learning what’s going on. And the field has too many simplistic answers. Too many times the field is simply going well, you have vaginismus, and you treat it this way when that’s not the answer. I’m currently working with a couple that have a 25 year unconsummated marriage because of sexual pain, and she’s been diagnosed vaginismus twice. She’s gone through all the pelvic floor treatment, and it’s it was a wrong diagnosis. Nobody actually did the work to understand what was going on. And so now we’ve got her in touch with the Sexual Medicine Specialist. We’ve diagnosed it in there, about 80% they’re doing really, really good and moving forward to it. So what would I say? Ish wish the International Society for the Study of sexual health in women specializes in this, that there are sexual medicine specialists that want. Work with pain. They do trainings twice a year. Some pelvic floor specialists are trained in this and connect you to sexual medicine specialists. Some sex therapists are trained in this and can do it. The reality of it is there’s still a small number of people in the country that are specializing in this and can help, and again, be a good consumer and find those people once you get into the network. We’ve had plenty of clients that we’ve been able to get into the top person in the world because he’s happy to see them for us, if they’re really enigmatic cases. So don’t live with the pain that’s not okay. Figure out what it is, and keep being persistent until somebody’s able to sit with you and tell you, explain to you why it’s going on, and give you options for treatment.

Juli Slattery  15:48

You said, ish, wish. Is that something that people can connect with at your table, or they could

Michael Sytsma  15:53

find it through just check in with me on it. If they go to abcst.org, the Christian sex therapists, they will all be familiar with with this. Wish it’s sexual medicine specialists. It’s an international group. Many of them are gynecologists, urologists, the physicians that are like a physician could be an internist. These are sexual medicine specialists. All

Juli Slattery  16:17

these acronyms, ABCs will will hook you up with those later, but stop,

Michael Sytsma  16:22

reach out, send an email saying, Where do I find help for for this, we’ve been dealing with it for a long time. It we’re getting better in the field at teaching people and helping them to not give simplistic answers, because thank you for not simplistic parts. No,

Juli Slattery  16:39

that’s right, as you described, right? Yes, here’s another one. Help me understand my spouse. Can

Michael Sytsma  16:46

I say one more thing on that? If you’re one of the couples that’s dealing with sexual pain, back away from what hurts. We’ve already said that, but don’t stop playing. You’ve heard that there are so many other things that you can do. Go back to maybe what you were doing before marriage, where you really played and enjoyed and drank in the sensation with each other. Keep the sexual activity very high.

Juli Slattery  17:07

Okay, good. And I know I’ve heard you say before, don’t push through pain like this is not one of those times where you’re like, just have to grit your teeth, and that’s not going to be

Michael Sytsma  17:16

helpful. The pairing that it does in the back of our brain is not good. Yeah, as Jennifer said, takes a long time to unpair it.

Jennifer Degler  17:23

And I would say, I see women that have done the work, they were having a lot of sexual pain. They’ve done the pelvic floor physical therapy work, all of this, and now they no longer have pain. They can they’re enjoying sex, but there is still trauma related to how all the times that it did hurt, and so sometimes even when it is no longer hurting, you still need to do some trauma recovery work over that. So they’ll come back to me and maybe have some EMDR, which is a trauma recovery treatment, but we work through that. So even when you make the pain go away. You may still have some more work to do, and I am so very, very, very sorry that you have this work to do. It is not fair, and our hearts really hurt for you,

Juli Slattery  18:18

yeah, and I know I’ve shared on job with you before something that I dealt with for about 15 years. You know, everything that we’re teaching at this conference, Mike and I keep saying, Boy, I wish we knew this when we first got married, and I know so many of you feel that same way, so but, but God brings hope and he brings healing. Jennifer, you mentioned that we have some mentors in the audience who are still working on their marriage, still working on sexual intimacy into the older years, and they’ve asked a few questions. How would you describe healthy sexuality for couples over 65 years old and the vaginal walls have thinned, intercourse becomes painful for the wife, but the husband desires sex. What advice would you give that couple,

Jennifer Degler  19:00

I would say, You be creative. And that’s one of the benefits of being older, is you’ve had to learn to be flexible and adaptable, and again, think outside the vagina, and to be able to say, Okay, what does it look like for us to be erotic together? To be sexual together? It may be we take a bath together. We take a shower together, we lay naked together. It may be that one person is still able to really their genitals, still respond in some way, whether that’s to oral sex or some sort of manual stimulation, some sort of play that you’re doing and that the other person just enjoys giving that other person pleasure. You know, if we I hope my grandmother lived to be 100 I hope I am in my 90s and I’m still having sex with my husband, but I am realizing what it may look like is that we lay naked together and we basically talk about, remember, when? Remember? When we went in the neighbor’s pool, when they were out of town and we had sex in their pool, or I had never done that. That’s Julie. I wanted to make you blush.

Juli Slattery  20:13

All my secrets are coming out today. Yeah, our neighbors are not here. Yes,

Jennifer Degler  20:18

exactly, but that’s fun, just to go down memory lane and talk about those sorts of things. Basically, it’s thinking about we’re never going to become just roommates, somehow. We’re going to continue to have an erotic connection there, but it’s not going to look like what it looked like when we were, you know, 25 years old, but he can still be really rich and meaningful, but you do have to just be creative.

Juli Slattery  20:50

Michael, do you think there’s ever a time where it’s okay for a couple just to kind of hang up our cleats say, Hey, we’re done. We had a we had a good run,

Michael Sytsma  20:58

but if both agreed to that, obviously they can that’s mutually agreed upon. I’m always sad for them because of what there are giving up. I love the creativity and shift, sometimes for rectal dysfunction, sometimes for thinning and difficulty. There is a medical thing that’s going on for a woman like this, it could be GSM, and there are medical treatments that help to delay that, or you can even reverse an awful lot of it. So just because it feels like your body is getting older, don’t just accept this is aging, and I need to stop having sex. Is the point to lean into others creativity, or I need to get some medical assessment

Juli Slattery  21:41

in your research, you found that there is a significant percentage of the population that is sexless. You talked about that a little bit earlier, and we do have some questions from couples that are not engaging sexually. For the last several years, my wife and I have had no have had sex two or three times a year, I’ve always been the initiator. I’ve stopped pursuing because I feel like she’s not really interested, and I don’t want to ask her to do anything she doesn’t want to do. We don’t soon be able to talk about sex. I know this isn’t how God intended our sex life to look. Where do we go from here?

Michael Sytsma  22:19

To me, the key phrases are, we can’t seem to talk about it, because there’s a lot of assumptions in that question, that she doesn’t really want to do this, so I’m going to back away and not put pressure on but if he’s the initiator and she’s receptive, that’s the roles. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. Who’s standing at the door? He identifies Himself as the groom, and he says, If anyone will open the door, he’s not busting down the door. He’s not whining and moaning and planing. He’s not threatening to go to the neighbors if you don’t open the door. He’s saying, if the bride will open the door, I will come in and we will have a central feast together. There are clear roles that he’s identifying that may be the role of this couple, and he may need to do better job in figuring out seductive ways to to invite her to engage with him sexually, rather than shutting down and backing up. Well, we don’t know until the two of them talk about it together, until she talks about her vision and what she would like, and he talks about his vision, and then they figure out where they overlap and begin to grow that part of the relationship, rather than back away from it.

Juli Slattery  23:22

So do you notice all the code words He’s given you? Behold, I stand at the door knock. You know your kids think you’re just reciting scripture, but could be your code word. There you go. So thank you for that. Yeah.

Michael Sytsma  23:35

Again, desire is what I did my doctoral dissertation on, and I’ve studied it for over 20 years. The desired discrepancy. So I could talk for a very long time on this, but this may be an arena that, once again, they need a third party to help bring them both to the table, because it gets so reactive for both. And we hear in this story, they’re both pulling away because they don’t want to hurt each other. They love each other dearly. They want to protect the marriage. And it seems like talking about this takes energy out of the marriage, and having somebody else who can pour the energy in and keep them at the table may help them to be able to talk about it better. Most of my couples resolve it when I can keep them at the table long enough,

Juli Slattery  24:15

that’s good. Yeah. So he does therapy in Atlanta, worth traveling to see him and you can have the sex cation in Atlanta, yeah, with Dr Michael direct, yes. Atlanta, yeah. We’ve we had a question both from a man and from a woman. I wonder if they’re married. I don’t know, but they both are asking about different elements of emotional intimacy that paved the way for sexual intimacy. So the man is saying, When my wife is not treating me with respect, like when she’s critical, I don’t want to do anything sexually or otherwise, I just don’t even want to get out of bed. And the woman is saying, when my husband it doesn’t help, it doesn’t appreciate all that I’m doing around the home or with the kids. I. Have no sexual desire. Can you both speak to that, both from the husband and wife’s perspective, about the importance of filling that emotional tank as well?

Jennifer Degler  25:08

I think it’s about inquiring after your spouse’s heart. And when we’re like, okay, I want access to your your genitals. I want access to you sexually, but your partner feels like, but you’re not even interested in my heart, like what’s going on with me emotionally, then why would I want to give you access to the most intimate parts of my body? And so it’s always worthwhile to take a step back and say, do we have built into our daily life and our routines where we just stop and say, How are you doing? Like, what’s what’s on your heart right now? What are you struggling with? What was the best? Yeah, what’s the what was the best part of your day? What was your high? What was your low? Because that creates emotional safety, that makes me feel seen, and when I’m seen, I’m willing to let you see me, all of me. So so many times it’s about realizing I’m I’m so hurt because you won’t see me, I’ve stopped trying to inquire after your heart. And it can start if that can feel really scary, but just you can even just start small, even with a small text, hey, you know, how’s your day going, or what’s been the best part of your day today, what’s been the hardest part of your day today? And just begin that process of inquiring after their heart. I love that

Michael Sytsma  26:40

we married each other because we believed in who we were going to be with you and who you were going to be. We were successful in I like the word seducing each other, to drawing each other, wooing each other. And somewhere in marriage, we stop wooing each other, we stop seducing each other, and then the setting that we’re trying to build this fire of passion in is no longer conducive to a good fire. It is not safe. A spouse was hyper critical. That’s not safe. Why would I want to get naked with you and be criticized in my heart and in my body, that you’re pressuring me to do something I don’t want to do that’s not safe, that I don’t know if the covenant of our marriage is safe. I don’t want to be. I don’t want to be that exposed when it’s not safe. Something is going wrong in the seduction, something is going wrong and not having an environment that draws me in, that that gets me to where I want to be. So I spent a lot of time just in talking about, what does it take for you to be more seductive, not to get out and dance naked, though that might be it, that may work really well. It’s what do. How do I live in a seductive way, a way that’s always wooing you and always drawing you, that creates a safer environment where we can experience the profound exposure that happens in great sex. And when couples come in and they’re not they’re pulling away. There’s something unsafe that we need to figure out, to draw back out of it.

Juli Slattery  28:07

Could you give some common examples of that, like particularly for the couple, where the woman has a higher desire, or initiated desire, and the husband isn’t feeling safe and barely even wants to respond sexually. What are some ways that she can seduce him, seduce his heart?

Michael Sytsma  28:26

Well, it starts with, what is Joe? I mentioned the passage of scripture earlier, to honor the marriage bed, to keep it sacred, keep it pure. Don’t bring anything in that robs it of life force. And what does she believe is robbing it of life force? What does he believe is robbing it of life force? And many times in those couples, he experiences her as screaming and hyper critical. She may not see herself that way, but that’s his experience of it. And so you know, to step up and expose my ego and expose myself to you when you’re just going to find it not measuring up. You’re going to find it not good enough. I’d rather not get on this ball field and play. I can’t win. I don’t want to engage. So them having a conversation about what would be more seductive, what would draw him in, what would help him? You’ve mentioned that God designed sex. I use the language as an object lesson, and so I’ll ask couples, well, what does it take physically for a man to engage sexually with his wife? He has to be strong and erect. What does it take to get him strong and erect? Well, kind of have to stroke. No different with our ego. What does it take for a man to show up well in the sexual bed, he has to be strong and erect inside. What does it take you have to stroke him. Have to help him to feel well. What does it take for a woman to engage sexually? She has to be open. She has to be inviting. She has to be ready. What does it take for that well, that takes a little bit more work for most women, not all. And you have to figure out, how do we help her to feel safe? Same with her heart, her heart has to be open. And if I’m critical, or if I’m telling her she’s broken or there’s something wrong with her or her sexuality, it’s not safe for her to be open. So helping them to sort through in the relationship. What does it take for them both to be seductive to each other, to be seduced by each other, because seduction is a two way thing. You can’t seduce me if I’m not open to it. And it may be that you’re doing all of the right stuff, and I’ve closed the wall, and I have to take ownership for that and drop the wall so that the seduction does work and draw us back to that table. Yeah, so it takes them really sorting through it.

Juli Slattery  30:39

Yeah, and you said it’s more work for the husband in some ways, but I also think what you’re talking about in terms of really building our husbands up. That takes a lot of work on the wives part. The book finding the here and your husband is one that you might want to check out. But just wives are so powerful with our words we don’t realize it, and we can be tearing our husbands down without even being aware of the impact that’s having.

Michael Sytsma  31:04

Yeah, wives are the scariest person in the world to husbands.

Juli Slattery  31:07

Can you say that again? Wives are

Michael Sytsma  31:09

the scariest person in the world to husbands because they hold our ego. And

Juli Slattery  31:13

so if we turn that around, what’s the good in that?

Michael Sytsma  31:17

Oh, the phenomenal power that God has given our wives, and if they steward it well, it is rich. Nobody has more ability to lift us up and support us and help us to thrive, and it goes the other way too. You know, husbands have phenomenal power in their their wife’s lives, and can help her thrive or can totally shut her down, depending on how we nurture that. Yeah.

Juli Slattery  31:39

What a call to ministry. Yeah,

Michael Sytsma  31:42

it’s just gorgeous. How God set it up and then we regularly fail at it. But if we stay in that battle, and we stay in the journey, and we keep leaning into each other, keep learning from each other, in 60 years, it can start to get good.

Juli Slattery  31:58

Oh, that’s encouraging. Just when we’re ready to go to heaven, right then we can lay in bed naked and think about the fact that we had one week that was good. Yeah, it’s not, it’s not that best semester, but I will say that there are couples here that really desire what, what they’ve been learning about, but there’s all sort of triggers and obstacles, and when they even think about going home and starting these conversations. They’re afraid that they’re just going to open up wounds that they don’t know how to deal with. What advice you have for that couple in terms of how to begin on that journey without just blowing up? I

Jennifer Degler  32:34

think if you’re in recovery, it’s great to have even just a code word or a way to let the other person know that’s enough. Like I’ve I am my I flipped my lid. I’m triggered, or whatever it might be to where you can no longer do what you were just describing, where I’m listening to you, and I’m seeking after your heart, and I’m want you to seek after mine, and we’re hearing one another, and so many times, we don’t know in our own self when we’re like, when we’re starting to flip out. Like, I can tell if you’re starting to flip out like you need to calm down, but I can’t tell when I need to calm down. Have you noticed that? And so in this process of taking ownership and learning to recognize in yourself. Okay, I am so upset right now, and I maybe don’t even know why, like we were having a good conversation about our sex life, and now all of a sudden, I feel scared, or I am mad or I am really sad, and I can’t even then we need to be able to say, I need a break or time out, or I know this is important, but I just whatever your code might be for that and that you give your partner the freedom to walk away and take a break if they ask for a break, I would go out of business as A couples therapist if people would just take time outs. Now, don’t take time outs because I got bills to pay, but honestly that so we do so much damage to our marriages and to all this great work that you’re putting into recovering from the hurt because we keep trying to talk past the point that we are physiologically really able to talk so earlier than you think, when you notice, you have that first thought of, Oh, you are really frustrating. You are you’ve got a problem. You need to stop talking to your spouse now there’ll be a party to this like, no, no, I need to explain to them why they’re so frustrating. Now would be a really good time for me to explain my point, because they understand me. They’ll realize I’m right. I am brilliant, and know that you just learn I just let me take a break. Calm down. It’s going to take you a minute. Minimum of 30 minutes to calm down, assuming you’re not feeding your anger during that time. You may need to take 24 hours, but you tell your spouse, I’ll be back. I want to continue talking about this, but I need to just kind of take care of myself right now over time, it will take you longer to do your recovery work this way, but it will actually be recovery work that lasts richer. It’s richer and it it will ultimately be work you’re not just like doing work and then ripping at it, doing work and ripping at it and then you get more and more discouraged.

Michael Sytsma  35:35

120% agree with that. You know, time outs are the most critical thing that I can teach couples. Two things I would add to it. One is, you have to come back. And you said that, but I want to emphasize it, you have to come back, or it’s withdrawal, and that doesn’t work. And two, keep vision in mind. I married you because I believe in you. I believe in who we can be together in this moment, I’ve lost track of that in this moment, I don’t necessarily believe in you, me us go back to know we will make it. And it may take us a year to get through this, but if I keep vision in mind, and we keep at the table and keep coming back to it, but timeouts are critical.

Juli Slattery  36:17

Hey, it’s me, and I’m just interrupting briefly to let you know about our authentic and missing membership. You may have heard about the monthly second cup call, which is an opportunity for members to join me in diving deeper into some of the challenging topics that we cover on this podcast. Second Cup is just one of our many membership benefits, and this is because I really want you to connect with other Christ followers who are on the same journey of making sense of God and sexuality. Additional member benefits include exclusive member only resources, full access to the Java with Julie archive that’s over 500 episodes, discounted event registration, discounted access to our online book studies, and, of course, a tangible way to meet and grow alongside other people. We’re seeking healing and truth in their faith and sexuality journey. If you’d like to become a member, we’ve included a link in our show notes, or you can just go ahead and visit authentic intimacy.com/remember All right, back to my Q and A panel with Michael and Jennifer. I’m summarizing some of the questions that have come in, how in the midst of that very long journey, and I hear you saying, this takes time recovery, takes time building trust, takes time healing, takes time in that journey. How do we take time to celebrate in the midst of it? Or do we have to wait until we’re 60 to actually enjoy sex where we’re all whole. What advice do you have for couples, just to enjoy what is today, as well as being working, working towards what

Jennifer Degler  37:49

please don’t feel like you got to work on this like forever and ever, till Jesus comes back and you never get to stop, because that’s exhausting. There are times where you’re like, Okay, I had the time and the energy to do a piece of work on this, and now I need to just kind of sit with that piece of work like we’re at a point now, let’s say we’re sexually we can now have these kinds of intimacies, but we can’t have these yet. Let’s just sit with that. Let’s let that really become part of who we are that’s comfortable with that, versus feeling like I have to keep a hand in my back all the time until we’re just exhausted. So as a trauma recovery therapist, that’s what I’m always telling my trauma clients, you’ve done a great piece of work. I’ll see you in about a year, maybe in two years, come back, live your life. Have some fun, and then God will let you know when it’s time, like, Okay, we’ve got the time, the energy, the resources. Let’s do another piece of work.

Juli Slattery  38:51

We have a few couples here that are dating or engaged. So glad that you’re here. You’ve sent in a few questions. Is sex outside of marriage? Okay? If you’re engaged, we are fully committed to each other. And I’ll answer this one. The answer is no, because you’re not fully committed until you’ve made a public covenant before God. When you’re engaged, you can always back out. But that covenant is not just a ring. The ring is a symbol of I covenant before God to love you till death do us part. And so sex is the celebration of that covenant. As much as you may love each other now and feel committed to each other until you say, I do you’re not committed. And so reserve that celebration for the actual covenant. Here’s another question, what wisdom do you have for a dating couple approaching marriage in which one person is Virgin and one person has had multiple sexual partners in the past? What advice do you give for navigating that relationship? Go ahead.

Jennifer Degler  39:59

I was just going. Say, be careful. Sometimes people will feel like, okay, I need to tell you every person I’ve ever been with and everything we’ve ever done that’s not going to be helpful, because that’s going to put images and thoughts in your partner’s mind that don’t need to be there. But then there is also talking about what is, what would be helpful to know about your partner’s past sexual experiences? So I would say, in that sense, be careful. I see that sometimes with with young couples, they feel like, if we’re going to be honest with one another, we need to tell everybody. We need to tell them everything. And then they have these images in their mind that they can’t get out of their mind. So I would say to just be careful about that. Do you have other thoughts

Michael Sytsma  40:48

I would take on to that the receiving partner kind of gets to choose some of that when I work with it, because the flip side of it, of I’m going to withhold or I’m going to hide, is not helpful either. That’s destructive, and the couple has to figure out where the line is. I work with some that they want to know everything and they manage everything. Others that can’t know anything or it’s too overwhelming for them until they’re further into the marriage and then it’s safe enough to slowly unpack it. Part of what goes on is the person who doesn’t have experience begins to believe that I don’t know enough and I’m not going to be able to measure up to all of what. And that is so wrong, because they might have had 50 partners, they might have had more, but they don’t know you and your body, and they don’t know how your body works, and they don’t know what intimacy with you is. And the downside is they’re bringing all of this experience in and they think they know something and they know nothing about you. And so to help them to realize the reality of it is, we’re starting on a flat level playing field. Unfortunately, you’re bringing in experience from others. That’s actually not helpful, but it’s what you have. I’m not bringing in experience. There’s a part of that that I don’t have the experience. And it’d be nice if we were exploring this together, but we’re not, and yet, we get to explore it together, and I’m going to step up and fully join you as we explore what it looks like for the two of us to be together. So it’s getting them on the same page, when they feel like they’re way different pages and they’re not. And

Juli Slattery  42:23

I would add to it, I think there can also be a dynamic of the person who has not had sex, maybe feeling like, Hey, I did it right? You didn’t. And that can carry over into marriage where there’s an unbalance of sort of some self righteousness, and you’re bringing all these problems into marriage. When you choose to get married, you are choosing each other, all your baggage, all your stuff. You’re getting married before Christ. The ground is level at the cross. It doesn’t mean that your past doesn’t affect you, but together, you are coming as sinners, saying, Lord, we are forgiven, we are redeemed, and so be careful that that doesn’t become a spiritual hierarchy that could also be a wedge in your marriage. All right, as we wrap up this conversation again, we have so many great questions we could spend a couple hours on this or more. I want to ask a few questions that have been sent in about what’s okay in the bedroom. I know you addressed this briefly in your talk, and you give us lots of freedom and ideas of how to have fun together, but some specific things that have been texted in first of all, consensual tie up or spanking I’m asking for a friend.

Jennifer Degler  43:39

Okay?

Michael Sytsma  43:42

I deal with this a lot. So

Jennifer Degler  43:48

when we are interested in someone hurting us, there is a difference between, hey, how about I’m going to, you know, take my bathrobe tie, and I’m going to tie your hands to the bed, and then I get to do to you whatever I want to do to you, versus I want you to injure me, or I want to injure you. I want to cause you pain. I think when we go to the place of I want to cause you pain, or I want you to cause me pain that’s coming from a place of brokenness, and that is a place that you mentioned Jay Stringer’s book, unwanted. There’s to be again, and it can be helpful to have a counselor to work this through, to be curious, compassionately curious, about our own Why is it? Why am I drawn to wanting my partner to humiliate me or to hurt me. And so what’s okay in the bedroom is supposed to be what draws us to oneness and draws us into connection. And so kind of walking that out. There’s clearly things in Scripture about this. You know, bestiality is wrong, bringing in a third party is wrong. Down. And then we have these areas where we kind of have to walk this out of, where is this coming from? A place of curiosity and fun and adventure and novelty and will lead to oneness? And where is this actually coming out of some brokenness that I that I have?

Juli Slattery  45:17

Would you add anything to that? No, I

Michael Sytsma  45:19

think that’s good. You know, Scripture gives us plenty of boundaries for it, the one we’ve already mentioned. If it’s not adding life, then it’s it’s destructive, it’s in if everything is permissible, but not everything’s beneficial, Everything is permissible, but I will be mastered by nothing. And often I see fetish type behaviors, or atypical type of fantasy behaviors become mastery within the relationship that it has to be present in order for sex to occur, and that’s not healthy. It’s gotten warped and it’s gotten destructive in it, or each one of us needs to learn to control his own body and holiness and honor, there may be a fantasy to something that is not healthy for us, and we acknowledge the fantasy and go, but you’re going to be destructive. I’m going to pursue something that’s pure and holy and good. And I work, I do work with a lot of couples who try to figure out, Is there a place that some of my fantasy can play out in the marriage and it still be healthy and good, and sometimes the couple can negotiate a middle ground for it. But I would agree totally whichever. Anytime we’re tying wanting to be injured or needing to injure, there’s something that’s meaningful. It’s tied to something, and we’ve got to figure out what the meaning is, and then decide, Is that healthy in the marriage? And I’ve yet to find it be healthy in the marriage.

Juli Slattery  46:35

Well, we’ve only answered probably about a third of your questions, and the point wasn’t to get to all of your questions, but to show you that you can ask anything, and God’s word can bring light and wisdom. And so I hope and prayer is that this isn’t the end of your asking, but it really sparks your curiosity. Of I want to learn more. We want to learn more as a couple. And again, we brought these experts in. We have the ministry of authentic intimacy that on Jabba with Julie regularly every week, bringing a new conversation expert in. The ministry is out in the foyer to help you address these questions. So as we close this episode of Java with Julie and your question wasn’t answered, I don’t want you to be discouraged, but just keep asking and pursue the resources that are available from God’s perspective and to get wisdom. But can we thank Michael and Jennifer for their wisdom? Thank you guys. Well, God is not afraid of our conversations around sex. He actually welcomes them, and He wants us to seek His wisdom in every area of our lives, and that includes this one. But I hope you found some of these answers to be helpful and encouraging, and if you’re wanting to hear more from Michael or Jennifer and haven’t signed up yet for reclaim 2.0 now is your chance click the link in the show notes to sign up and see how, with God’s help, you can reclaim his design for sex and marriage in 2024 Well, that’s all I have for you now, friend, thanks for listening, and I’ll see you at reclaim you.